He’ll Understand and Say “Well Done”

I. Published Origins

The genesis of this song by Lucie Campbell is unfortunately not well documented and difficult to verify. According to one researcher, the song was written and copyrighted in 1933,[1] but examination of the Catalogue of Copyright Entries for 1933 shows no such registration, except an entry as follows:

He understands; hymn, m arr. Mrs. C.P. Wilson. © 1 c. Feb. 23, 1933; E unp. 68008; Justine DeRieux. 3358[2]

The name DeRieux here represents the copyright owner. This almost certainly is not Campbell’s hymn, even if it had been submitted by the National Baptist publishing board on her behalf (more on this below). It is quite possible, even likely, that the copyright was not submitted to the Library of Congress, which at the time was necessary for the copyright to be valid. Fellow gospel composer Kenneth Morris explained the lax approach to copyright in the early days:

As far as the copyright was concerned, the expense of copyrighting was about two dollars, so it wasn't even worthwhile. . . . And really, we didn't even know too much about how to go about getting a copyright. We just put the copyright notice on the song, just put it on there. It wasn't until we found out from the white man how popular the songs were, how necessary it was for us to get our own copyright. He started to come in and want our music. This woke us up. When they took my [arrangement of] “Just a Closer Walk with Thee,” that woke me up. From that time on, we started to copyright our material. Before that, we never did. Nobody did, including Mr. Dorsey. He didn't start until he found out that it was money “in them there hills.”[3]

Evidence for the song’s composition in the 1930s is supported by newspaper accounts. The earliest apparently being The Gazette of Xenia, Ohio, 10 July 1935, page 2, where it was named as being slated for performance by Miss Aroma Phoenix at Zion Baptist Church, following the National Sunday School and B.Y.P.U. [Baptist Young People’s Union] Congress held in Dayton.

In spite of the spotty trail of breadcrumbs, some things are clear. Campbell was actively involved with the National Baptist Convention U.S.A. and its publishing arm. The song almost certainly was sung at a convention following its composition, and it probably circulated as a leaflet or in a booklet for those purposes, as with another of her songs, “Something Within.”

From 1930 to 1962, she introduced a new song each year at the National Baptist Convention. Her songs became gospel standards, sung by all races and creeds. Campbell has the distinction of having composed the second-most popular song in all Black Christendom after Thomas A. Dorsey’s song “Precious Lord,” which is, of course, “He Understands, He’ll Say, ‘Well Done.’” One can go to a Black church at the time of a funeral and find Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, and Holiness singing this song, and they will be singing it without the sheet music.[4]

In the reports from the Convention held in Memphis, Tennessee, 7–10 September 1933, Campbell was mentioned leading music:

The chorus, led by Miss Lucy Campbell, rendered a number of choice selections that stirred the Convention to a high pitch of religious enthusiasm.

Miss Lucy Campbell, Tennessee, conducted the song service.

“On to Victory—Loyalty to Christ,” topic, was led by Miss L.M. Campbell, Tennessee.[5]

Although the report sometimes mentions songs being sung, this song was not mentioned, specifically.

The earliest verifiable appearance of the song in print was in Celestial Echoes (Dayton, TN: R.E. Winsett, 1943), compiled by R.E. Winsett (1876–1952), using an arrangement by Winsett.

Winsett’s printing shows the intended copyright holder for the song as being the National B.Y.P.U. Board, and it indicated the availability of leaflet copies of the song, none of which seem to survive (except, perhaps, at Figure 7 below). Winsett reprinted the song in other collections, including his Radiant Joy (1944), Abiding Faith (1947), Revival Message (1947)

Another early arrangement was made by J.M. Henson for his collection Radio Beams No. 2 (Atlanta: J.M. Henson, 1945). Henson’s version differs from Winsett’s especially in the way the rhythms are interpreted, given in 6/4 rather than Winsett’s 9/8. This isn’t simply a matter of changing where the barlines fall or tweaking note values, it’s matter of changing the feel from a simple triple to a compound triple, in the way the beats are counted and felt. Henson’s version does not acknowledge the National Baptist copyright.

The Stamps-Baxter company picked up the song for its Harmony Gems (1947) and printed it again in Star of Hope (1949). The Stamps-Baxter arrangement is in 6/8 time. Like Henson, Stamps-Baxter did not acknowledge the National Baptist copyright.

The song was picked up by John T. Benson for his publishing company, starting with Songs of Inspiration (Nashville: John T. Benson, 1949). Benson’s version is set in 3/4.

Benson also included this song in Singing Joy (1950), and he published an arrangement for solo voice by Amanda Jarratt in 1956. All of Benson’s versions are in 3/4.

Lastly, a folio edition for solo voice was published by Hill & Range in New York in 1951, without credit to Campbell, a rare snub among early published editions. This edition uses a 3/4 meter, with an approach similar to Winsett’s 9/8 version, double the note values.

Fig. 6. “He’ll Understand and Say ‘Well Done’” (NY: Hill & Range, 1951).
   

The publishing industry of the 1940s and the dawn of the 1950s, therefore, illustrates two things: (1) the exploding popularity of the song, and (2) wide disagreement on rhythmic interpretation.

II. Recorded History

The oldest surviving recording of the song was made by the Four Great Wonders for BlueBird on 8 October 1940 in Atlanta, released as B8650 and as Montgomery Ward M8914. The group included Amos Sharp (lead), Robert Moss (tenor), L.V. Cox (baritone), and Sollie J. Pugh (bass), managed by Rev. W.A. Clark.[6] In this unaccompanied performance, covering two stanzas, two choruses, and a repeat of the chorus, the group sings in 4/4 time, rhythmically, lightly swung, with some syncopations.

Next, it was recorded by the Four Knights on 20 August 1945 for Lang-Worth Feature Programs, Inc., in New York and released on VGS 40A, 33-1/3. The Four Knights were a group based in Charlotte, North Carolina, formerly known as the Southland Jubilee Singers, consisting of Eugene Alford (1st tenor), John Wallace (2nd tenor, guitar), Clarence Dixon (baritone), Oscar Broadway (bass).[7] Lang-Worth discs were not meant for retail; instead, they were sold to radio stations for airplay. This performance has a different character than that of the Four Great Wonders, arguably better suited to the text, sung in a tender and lilting 4/4, covering the chorus, stanza 2, and a return of the chorus.

The Four Knights recorded the song again for Decca in New York on 6 December 1946, released as 48018A, 78-rpm. This version is similar to the Lang-Worth recording, but incorporating the first stanza. Notice how, in both of these recordings, the song is credited as a spiritual rather than being credited to Campbell, which would seem to indicate two different and disparate methods of transmission. That is to say, Campbell was generally recognized in the publishing industry, but in the aural tradition, her name did not accompany her work.

Also in contrast to the printed tradition, the Four Great Wonders and the Four Knights both ended the first stanza with “He’ll understand and say well done,” a sensible change for sake of consistency.

Another recording made in 1945 and advertised for sale as early as 5 January 1946, was made by the Sunset Jubilee Singers for HUB Records 3005-B. The group’s personnel included Carl McCarter, Vernon Downey (lead), Sam Kellum (tenor), Thomas Williams (baritone), Ernest Banks, and William Kelley (basses). The credit here to Williams is probably in reference to the arrangement, and the disc is labeled “Spiritual / Male Quartet,” with no credit given to Campbell. Like the Four Knights, the Sunset Jubilee Singers chose a 4/4 approach to the rhythm. This recording is unique in the inclusion of the fourth stanza, spoken rather than sung.

In April 1947, the song crossed racial lines in the industry when a new studio label called TruTune in Anderson, Indiana, released a recording by the Dixie Four (Gene Lowery, Honey Dunn, Eiland Davis, Shorty Green, and accompanist Frankie Collins or Hassel Kimbrough). On the label, the song was credited solely to Winsett. In spite of the nod to Winsett, this performance is in 4/4 and more closely resembles the Four Great Wonders.

Other recordings in the late 1940s and early 1950s include Wings Over Jordan on RCA Victor DJ-570-B, recorded 8 June 1948; the Blackwood Brothers on their own label, 1157-B, ca. 1949; Happy Goodman Family on the Wally Fowler Record of the Month Club, 1003-A, ca. 1950; Red Foley with the Jordanaires on Decca 14553-B, 1951; and the R.S.B. Gospel Singers on OKeh 6993, recorded Dec. 1952, released Aug. 1953.

III. Enter Lucie Campbell

Unfortunately, little is known of Campbell’s response to the explosion in popularity of her song. Some things are clear: regardless of what the National Baptists had done or not done with the copyright, Campbell submitted her own copyright license for the song on 8 March 1950. Notice how this was not labeled as a renewal or a transfer of ownership.

She also self-published her own collection of songs, Lucie E. Campbell’s Soul-Stirring Songs for All Religious Occasions (Memphis, 1952), including “He’ll Understand and Say Well Done.” She seems to have reprinted the original loose-leaf hymn sheet produced by the National Baptists. If so, this version predates all the other examples above. Campbell’s version is written in 3/4, but given the triplet groupings, this is probably best understood as 9/8, like Winsett’s edition.

Some other questions linger over the history of the song moving forward. In Campbell’s time, a copyright was only valid for 28 years before it needed to be renewed, putting a potential renewal in 1978. Campbell died in 1963. When the song was printed in the New National Baptist Hymnal (1977), no copyright notice was given, suggesting the copyright was in orphaned status. When it was printed in We’ll Understand It Better By and By (Washington, DC: Smithsonian, 1992), p. 107, it carried a notice saying a renewal had been claimed by Screen Gems / EMI, which is currently administered by Hal Leonard. The song does appear in Hal Leonard’s licensing system, but a search of both the printed copyright book from 1978 and the online database of copyrights shows no such renewal.[8] In hymnals, the song is generally treated as being in the public domain (orphaned, not renewed), and given the lack of documentation surrounding the alleged renewal, an assumption of public domain status is reflected here.

by CHRIS FENNER
for Hymnology Archive
25 March 2025

Footnotes:

1. Horace Clarence Boyer, “Lucie E. Campbell: Composer for the National Baptist Convention,” We’ll Understand It Better By and By, edited by Bernice Johnson Reagon (Washington, DC: Smithsonian, 1992), p. 83

2. Catalogue of Copyright Entries: Part 3 Musical Compositions, New Series, vol. 28, pt. 1 (Washington, DC: Government Printing Office, 1934), p. 136: Google

3. Bernice Johnson Reagon, “Kenneth Morris: I’ll Be a Servant for the Lord,” We’ll Understand It Better By and By (Washington, DC: Smithsonian, 1992), pp. 329–341.

4. Horace Clarence Boyer, “Lucie E. Campbell: Composer for the National Baptist Convention,” p. 82.

5. Proceedings of the Fifty-Third Annual Session of the National Baptist Convention Held with the Baptist Churches of Memphis, Tennessee, September 7–10, 1933, pp. 32, 33, 39: http://media2.sbhla.org.s3.amazonaws.com/aaa/nbc/NBC_1933.pdf

6. Robert M.W. Dixon, et al., Blues & Gospel Records 1890–1943 (Oxford: University Press, 1997), p. 269.

7. Cedric Hayes & Robert Laughton, Gospel Discography 1943–2000, 3rd ed., 2 vols. (Canada: Eyeball, 2014).

8. The printed edition is here, and the website catalog is here.

Related Resources:

“He’ll understand and say well done,” Hymnary.org:
https://hymnary.org/text/if_when_you_give_the_best_of_your_servic

C.M. Hawn, “If when you give the best of your service,” Canterbury Dictionary of Hymnology:
http://www.hymnology.co.uk/i/if-when-you-give-the-best-of-your-service